Veganism: How Healthy Is It Really?

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  Laura Custer said,

  I completely agree!! The list of ingredients is unnatural.

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  randomlady said,

  go veg[etari]an. cut the crap.
  pointing out the smallest little contradictions in a vegan diet is just a way to help you feel more secure about your vegetarianism. Truth is, whatever reason you have for going vegetarian is just not fully realized if you’re still eating eggs and dairy. I hope you make the switch.

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  Tracy said,

  Yes, a vegan diet is the healthiest way to go. Of course, it’s better to eat a whole-foods vegan diet. But just by ridding yourself of animal products, you’re going to do yourself a world of good. Check out “The China Study” for evidence on how a whole-foods vegan diet will help you in so many ways.

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  Brandon said,

  Laura: Apparently we both agree.

  randomlady: I have no desire to cut out fish or eggs. I’m not saying I’m all high and mighty, but I think my diet is healthier than a vegan who eats that processed stuff.

  Tracy: I won’t disagree with you. I’ll have to check out the China Study

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  Moi said,

  Not sure where you got the impression that isolated soy protein or textured proteins are sources of MSG, but you’re wrong. In the case of isolated proteins, the free amino acids (including glutamate) are present in the same proportions relative to protein that they were before the isolation was carried out.

  Texturizing a protein doesn’t increase the amount of free amino acids either. They just do things like puffing, extruding and chopping, none of which breaks peptide bonds to any significant degree.

  You’re also wrong about the FDA’s labeling requirements. There is no 90% cutoff over which MSG must be disclosed. The FDA requires that MSG, protein hydrolysates, and protein autolysates be listed separately on an ingredient string if they are present in ANY quantity.

  And you’re wrong about natural smoke flavor. It isn’t “a concoction of up to 300 different ingredients”, it is just wood smoke that’s been captured in water and fractioned to remove most of the carcinogens. It doesn’t contain MSG at all.

  I haven’t read Blaylock’s book cover-to-cover, but I have read enough to know that he is flat wrong about significant areas of brain physiology, especially as relates to glutamate signaling and excitotoxicity. Please spend some time on PubMed before taking his word for anything.

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  Romina said,

  I completely agree that the substitutions are ridiculous. They’re so unhealthy, and people have no clue, because they’re always sold in health food stores or in the produce aisle at their supermarket.

  Also, I think that if you’re going to give up meat, why would you still want to eat things that taste like meat?

  I’m not guiltless, I used to eat these, in my transitional stage. However, now I eat as little processed foods as I can, and have eliminated soy protein isolates as well as soy from my diet. And I feel much better for it.

  As for what you say about going completely vegan, don’t dismiss it completely. You don’t know one day you could change your mind. Keep an open mind, and you’ll realize that a vegan diet can be as fulfilling as one with fish.

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  Brandon said,

  Moi: First off, I want to thank you for stopping by and commenting.

  Here’s the problem with your argument. In theory, yes, isolated soy protein, textured protein, natural smoke flavor, etc. shouldn’t contain MSG at all. But all ingredients are not created equal. If I go to Whole Foods and buy something with isolated soy protein, I’m not as worried about it as I would be if I bought something at a convenience store that contained the same ingredient.

  You’re saying that I don’t know what I’m talking about in how these things are processed. But, actually I do. But the fact of the matter is that food companies don’t always use good manufacturing practices. In that case, when they are processing these ingredients, they are mixing and matching other substances into their concoctions for maximal shelf life and flavor. If you don’t believe this fact, you are naive.

  You have obviously not researched what can contain MSG and the requirements the FDA has put on them. I suggest you do so before making baseless remarks. This is the same FDA that knowingly used faulty research in approving Vioxx, Celebrex, Prozac, etc.

  In regards to Russell Blaylock’s book, I have read it cover to cover and researched many of the topics he presented in his book myself. I never came across anything that showed he was wrong about his brain physiology. I’ve learned about brain physiology myself, and what he’s saying is dead on in many things. I suggest you actually read the book before slamming it.

   Unless you can absolutely prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that there’s overwhelming scientific evidence to back up anything you said, I suggest you spend some time on PubMed yourself. Until you do, you’ll just continue to sound like an FDA spokesperson to me.

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  Brandon said,

  Romina: I’m not knocking a vegan diet at all. Just a processed vegan diet. You might be right, though. Maybe one day, I’ll go vegan. Only time will tell.

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  Moi said,

  Brandon, I’m going to interleave my responses with quotes from your comment so that it is clear exactly what it is that I am responding to: "Here’s the problem with your argument. In theory, yes, isolated soy protein, textured protein, natural smoke flavor, etc. shouldn’t contain MSG at all. But all ingredients are not created equal. If I go to Whole Foods and buy something with isolated soy protein, I’m not as worried about it as I would be if I bought something at a convenience store that contained the same ingredient."

  I don’t understand what you are saying here. You apparently agree with me that these ingredients don’t contain MSG "in theory", so why are you seeming to claim that they do contain MSG in actual practice? From the perspective of the ingredient supplier or the food manufacturer, what would be the point in slipping MSG into a product without disclosing it to their consumers? Doing so would risk an FDA recall and the bad publicity and/or lawsuits that might follow from it. And for what? MSG is on the GRAS list, so if they wanted to include it, why wouldn’t they just do so lawfully by listing it on the ingredient string? Given that MSG is listed on so many products already, it’s not as if you’d expect this to make a big dent in the sales of a product.

  "You’re saying that I don’t know what I’m talking about in how these things are processed. But, actually I do. But the fact of the matter is that food companies don’t always use good manufacturing practices. In that case, when they are processing these ingredients, they are mixing and matching other substances into their concoctions for maximal shelf life and flavor. If you don’t believe this fact, you are naive."

  Again, I don’t understand what your point is. You seem to be saying that food manufacturers knowingly adulterate their products and/or add additional ingredients off-label. If they were doing this, they would be breaking the law and risking a recall. Why would they take the risk? Also, perhaps you’re just getting loose with your terminology, but it’s not true that some food manufacturers don’t follow good manufacturing practices. cGMPs are a part of the FDA’s regulations for manufacturers, and manufacturers are inspected at least annually (frequency depending on the type of food being processed and the state it’s being processed in) for compliance.

  "You have obviously not researched what can contain MSG and the requirements the FDA has put on them. I suggest you do so before making baseless remarks." I’ve extensively researched these issues, actually. Given that you’ve already had to retreat from claims like, "Any protein that gets a "textured" in front of it, always contains MSG." you might want to re-evaluate your own grasp of the subject, don’t you think? Regardless, it’s a simple matter to confirm that I am right about the labeling regulations for MSG. Or, since you seem to have some trust in Whole Foods, they do have a more reader friendly page of info on MSG that includes this quote: "As mandated by the Code of Federal Regulations, 21CFR101.22 Subpart B: Foods: Labeling of Spices, Flavorings, Colorings, and Chemical Preservatives, the terms "flavors", "natural flavors", or "flavorings" may not include MSG, hydrolyzed proteins, and autolyzed yeast. Each of these must be declared on the label by its common or usual name rather than hidden within another blanket term." http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/wholebody/ingredients/msg.html

  "In regards to Russell Blaylock’s book, I have read it cover to cover and researched many of the topics he presented in his book myself. I never came across anything that showed he was wrong about his brain physiology. I’ve learned about brain physiology myself, and what he’s saying is dead on in many things. I suggest you actually read the book before slamming it."

  Like I told you, I have read quite a bit of it already. I propose that we pick something that you think he’s "dead on" about, and I’ll show you that he’s actually not. I’ll do it with citations so that you don’t have to just take my word for it. What do you say?

  "Unless you can absolutely prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that there’s overwhelming scientific evidence to back up anything you said, I suggest you spend some time on PubMed yourself. Until you do, you’ll just continue to sound like an FDA spokesperson to me."

  I don’t see that I’ve made much in the way of positive claims that one might be expected to provide "overwhelming scientific evidence" for, but let me know what in particular you’d like to see substantiated and I’ll see what I can do. In the meantime I will remain, as always, your trusty FDA spokesperson.

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  Brandon said,

  Moi: What you presented me is not overwhelming scientific evidence that what you are saying is true. You just gave me links to what the government and Whole Foods say is in their foods. I trust Whole Foods because they make it a point to use the best manufacturing practices in their foods. Companies like Kraft do not. So the government guidelines look good in theory, but when it comes to big money food companies, they get to play by different rules.

  Like I said, provide me with actual scientific evidence that these government guidelines are true for big food companies and I’ll recant. But showing me government guidelines doesn’t persuade me in the least. Honestly, do you really work for the FDA? As I said before, the FDA has a shady history i.e. Vioxx, Celebrex, etc.

  As far as Russell Blaylock’s book goes, I personally don’t care about debating it. I’ve researched what I wanted to research and I feel confident about what I’ve learned. I was presenting what I learned from the book and felt good about it. You’re the one that came here to disprove everything in his book, so the onus is on you to prove your point.

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  January said,

  I’m just going to chime in here. I’m not going to get into the debate. I would just like to point out that when Brandon started opening my eyes to what “could be” in these ingredients, I was not happy. I loved these foods. After I calmed down about it, I stopped eating them. No matter who is right here, it doesn’t change that I started getting healthier and losing weight cutting out these ingredients(and they weren’t necessarily “bad” foods).

  As far as Whole Foods goes, I have personally asked them about the “natural flavors” and “spices” in the products they carry (I don’t trust artificial flavors, colors, etc). Some of the products list what they are in parentheses, but others do not. Employees of Whole Foods have told me that in their case, they personally visit and research how all the products in their store are made (and with what). I doubt Fry’s and Walmart worry about this. Whole Foods is also very honest about their organic vs. conventional foods and the difference in their meats as well.

  This is all my personal experience as that weighs more to me than any scientific research or FDA or government statements and supposed rules.

  It’s simple that eating a whole foods and foods from local resources (if available) is the simplist, most trustworthy way to eat these days.

  Ok, that’s my 2 cents.

  Peace,
  January

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  Moi said,

  “What you presented me is not overwhelming scientific evidence that what you are saying is true.”

  Brandon, as I’ve already said, I haven’t made any positive claims that you might reasonably expect “overwhelming scientific evidence” for. Do you really think that there are scientific studies going on to determine what the FDA regulations are? Doesn’t pointing you to the relevant portions of the Code of Federal Regulations pretty firmly establish what those regulations are?

  “You just gave me links to what the government and Whole Foods say is in their foods. I trust Whole Foods because they make it a point to use the best manufacturing practices in their foods. Companies like Kraft do not. So the government guidelines look good in theory, but when it comes to big money food companies, they get to play by different rules.”

  Brandon, you’ve obviously misread the links that I provided. What those links did was to establish that you are wrong about MSG labeling regulations. In spite of your authoritative tone, there is no 90% threshold under which MSG needn’t be listed on an ingredient string. At this point a mature person might be inclined to admit that he was wrong.

  By the way, your professed trust in Whole Foods is particularly bizarre in the context of this discussion. You do realize that Whole Foods carries all of the Tofurky products that you’ve written about, don’t you?

  “Like I said, provide me with actual scientific evidence that these government guidelines are true for big food companies and I’ll recant. But showing me government guidelines doesn’t persuade me in the least.”

  You are a very confused person. The FDA guidelines that I’ve shown you apply to all food manufacturers. If you’re claiming that “big food companies” are exempted from them, then the onus is on you to demonstrate this.

  “Honestly, do you really work for the FDA? As I said before, the FDA has a shady history i.e. Vioxx, Celebrex, etc.”

  No, I was kidding when I said I work for the FDA.

  “As far as Russell Blaylock’s book goes, I personally don’t care about debating it. I’ve researched what I wanted to research and I feel confident about what I’ve learned. I was presenting what I learned from the book and felt good about it. You’re the one that came here to disprove everything in his book, so the onus is on you to prove your point.”

  Blaylock’s book is several hundred pages long, so it would be a tall order to disprove his many errors. Like I said, let’s narrow the focus to just one or two of his claims, stuff that really convinced you that MSG ingestion is dangerous to brain health, and I’ll show you that he is wrong. I’m ready and willing to shoulder my burden, but a rebuttal to his entire book would probably run in the hundreds of pages.

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  Moi said,

  “Employees of Whole Foods have told me that in their case, they personally visit and research how all the products in their store are made (and with what).”

  That’s not true. It might be true that they visit the manufacturers of their house brand (365), but Whole Foods does not visit all of the manufacturers of their name brand products.

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  Brandon said,

  Moi: I know you were joking about the FDA. You just sound like a big fan.

  “Blaylock’s book is several hundred pages long, so it would be a tall order to disprove his many errors. Like I said, let’s narrow the focus to just one or two of his claims, stuff that really convinced you that MSG ingestion is dangerous to brain health, and I’ll show you that he is wrong. I’m ready and willing to shoulder my burden, but a rebuttal to his entire book would probably run in the hundreds of pages.”

  Just the fact that you think MSG is not dangerous, as you alluded to in this paragraph of your last comment, proves to me that it’s not worth arguing the point with you.

  The bottom line is that this blog is called “The Skinny on January,” not “The Skinny on Debating Scientific Research.” I’m not into nitpicking each other’s comments. If that’s what you want to do, fine, but do it on another site.

  If you want to offer your opinion on whether you think eating a vegan processed diet is better/worse than a non-vegan whole food diet, great. If you want to continue to promote FDA guidelines and MSG, I won’t allow your comment.

• Being Right: It Won’t Make You Popular : The Skinny on January said,

  [...] last post really garnered quite a response from one particular reader. I made some statements about some [...]

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  Edwin Casimero said,

  I’m not into religion. Many vegans I read on the net make veganism their religion. I’m just into whatever works. Whatever heals.

  I tried cooked veganism. It was just a transition thing to being raw vegan and on to raw fruitarian.

  Cooked veganism does nothing to healing ailments, diseases. You won’t heal cancer, diabetes, or psoriasis or heart disease on cooked veganism.

  The vegans you describe are strange. They are vegans as a religion, But they sure aren’t health nuts.

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  Brandon said,

  Edwin: You are so right. Health nuts they are not.

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  January said,

  It seems that veganism for some is the first step to raw and fruitarian, etc. I do think that a raw diet is an ultimate, healing diet! Hey, there are strange people in every group. I know a lot of people that think we are strange and I love it!

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  Shayla said,

  I think there’s nothing wrong with being the “wrong” kind of vegan, if it’s a step in the process to the “right” kind of vegan, and maybe even ultimately to raw veganism. My husband and I started out the “wrong” way, with lots of animal product substitutions, but it only lasted a few months, and we’ve been the healthy kind of vegan (whole, organic foods, all home made, much home grown, high raw) for 7 years. We have 3 kids who have been vegan and at least 50% raw their whole lives. *So* worth it to eat tofurkey and veggie hot dogs for a few months. I’d hate to think that people would fail in their attempt at veganism because they read something that made them too scared to eat foods that might actually ease their transition and result in a lifetime of better health.

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  Brandon said,

  Shayla: I think that’s great you went to eating whole organic foods. If that worked for you, then that’s great!

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  January said,

  Shayla, you made a very good point. If it is a stepping stone to an even healthier diet, then by all means, so for it! It’s all progress. We each have to get there the best way we can and when we are ready. Thanks Shayla for bring such great insight to the table!

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  Rayna said,

  i’m an ethical vegan, but i believe that one can be healthy as a vegan, vegetarian, or omnivore. it’s all a matter of what you choose to eat. i personally don’t eat a lot of meat substitutes and instead choose whole foods. i’m sure my diet is far healthier than a “whole food” omnivorous diet.

  that said, being vegan for compassionate reasons has heightened my spiritual awareness and eventually brought me to raw (i’m ~80% raw now).

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  January said,

  Rayna. Thank you for sharing your insight and I agree with what you are saying. Anyone can be healthy if they are choosing the best options of food for their lifestyle. Congratulations on your journey…going to high raw is awesome!!!

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